Thursday, August 16, 2007

TWLOHA, evolution, big bang theory

First of all, please check this out: to write love on her arms.
Also, the movement's myspace page.
And, lastly, this music video by Between the Trees.

I just found this and it's made an impact on me. Read the story. Watch the video. Hop on?



Evolution discussion in my biology class today. The theory of evolution as the origin of the species really kind of baffles. There are so many holes in the 'theory' (more on this later) that no one has been able to plausibly fill for me, and it's really discouraging and a little bit insulting to me to think that the sophisticated scientific community would really hold on to this idea. So I'm assuming that there are explanations of which I'm not yet aware. Please let me know. Argue with me. Really.

So let's go through evolution as an explanation for the beginning of life really quick. Okay, so the idea is that there was a piece of organic matter that became an organism that became an organism that became an organism that...etc. to make what we are today, right? Except that original first and second and third and fourth, etc. generation species organism is still here for some reason, even though, according to natural selection, the whole point is that they died off because they were inept (convenient because then we can create this chain of evolution just by looking at what's here). Anyway, if we're all on the same page and there's no dispute so far, I'm going to use the jump from primates (apes) to humans as an example. The idea is that these primates were around but some of them were different than the others (smarter, upstanding, less hairy), and these different ones eventually evolved into humans, yeah? Tell me if I'm wrong. My problem is that being ape and not human didn't become a problem (that is, disadvantageous -- and so by natural selection they would evolve) until there were humans, who came and started taking other species out. So what was the reason for apes becoming humans? And if they did, why are the apes still around? This wouldn't happen on its own, purely for the survival of the species. It wouldn't have been advantageous. Agreed? Which is the only motivation, so to speak, of a species to do or change anything, correct? So there must be some other force coming into play here that is putting its motivations into action. And because this force has, apparently, a unique ability to make things happen, have control, is it not correct to know it is a higher power?
So who, now, is going to tell me that evolution disproves God? Who is going to tell me that they believe in evolution because they don't believe in God? Evolution has always been introduced to me as an alternative to Creationism - the origin of the species story for non-believers. It doesn't seem, to me, that it is a very good one.

And if the primates to human example doesn't work for you, we can talk about wings. Wings are a very complicated piece of anatomy, agreed? There are tissues and organs and it's an entire limb, for crying out loud. So do you think that wings were one sole mutation that occurred and turned a species into flying creatures? I wouldn't say so. I'd say that it would have to happen in a series of mutations, a series of genetic variances that would be adapted and incorporated into the genetic makeup of the species rather than one HUGE ODD MUTATION that was suddenly very advantageous (this bird must have lived forever to be able to reproduce enough to keep these new wing things going in the whole scheme of the population). Right? So if this is happening gradually, what kind of variance that will eventually become wings would be at all advantageous enough to survive in the species? Don't you think that little stubs where wings will, at one point, be would be really awkward and annoying for these future-aves? Don't you think the poor mutant birds would be made fun of at school by the normal, stubless ones? Wouldn't that lower their self-esteem, making them less likely to find mates, and therefore less likely to reproduce, therefore not passing on these would-be wings?
But, needless to say, birds have wings. It happened. Why is that? What kind of force is intervening here and telling would-be birds that, "Hey, I know these stubs here are really annoying right now, but just think! Eventually you'll FLY! Just think of the (great, great, great, great, great...) children!" Because somebody's gotta be saying that if this is how birds happened to become birds. The birds didn't decide to become birds. Who wants stubs? They were content as a land-limited species. They didn't have the power of thinking ahead for their own good like that (WHAT IS THIS TERM?), and even if they did, what's the point in becoming that complex? They were happy enough, yeah?

Another thing: is there anyone here that wants to point out a huge, gaping flaw in the theory of protein transport across cell membranes? or cohesion? Or hydrogen bonds? Or the idea that blood circulates and carries oxygen? None of these are laws (so they are theories), but they're all pretty much considered fact. We've reached a consensus. But I think the reason we've reached such an agreed consensus (redundant) is that no one's really been able to point out some huge fallacy in the theory. They're pretty darn airtight. Why, then, do so many people want to take evolution as truth? Why is there the same blind faith in evolution as I have in Creationism? I have faith in creationism because I'm religious and I believe in God -- not because there's a huge amount of scientific evidence for it. Evolution (I'd like to remind everyone that I mean evolution as a theory for the origin of life), to me so far, cannot be accepted beyond a reasonable doubt at all. There are too many holes to trust it. And so I don't understand why so many people want to trust this theory the same way that they trust that the reason it hurts when my finger gets sliced open is that I have nerve endings.
Stemming from that, if you're going to say, "Well, we just don't know. Science isn't exact. We don't have answers for everything.", then I'm gonna have to say, "Then please don't start off telling me you do. Evolution is not a viable theory. I'm glad we've both reached that conclusion." I'm not going to try to prove Creationism to you. I don't consider it a valid scientific theory. If you want to argue with me, I really won't be able to convince you. It's not relevant to me, as a Christian. I believe it because I'm a Christian. I don't need it to convince me to be a Christian -- there are so many more valid and important things that have done that for me. (And I'd love to talk to you about those.) So my intention here is not to convince everyone that, as far as origin of life goes, creationism is right and evolution is wrong. I'm just trying to understand why evolution is so easily accepted and how it earns its standing as a theory.

So I realize that I'm posting this at great risk of being torn apart (since my whole rambling argument there is pretty easily responded to, though it at least has a basis that I can't, myself, find an explanation for), but I guess that's what I'm asking for, right?



One more thing:
Big Bang Theory: There was nothing, and then BANG, there was something.
Creationism: There was nothing, and then BANG, there was something. God made it happen.
We might not disagree so greatly, after all.



Current music:
the soundtrack for Notre-Dame de Paris
Albatross, The Classic Crime
Words, Between the Trees

Currently reading:
Catch-22, Joseph Heller
The Kite Runner, Khaled Hosseini

9 comments:

Companionable Ills said...

This'll be long...

TWLOHA is an amazing movement/idea.

I was going to blog the discussion in class today but decided against it; so thanks. A few nitpicks:

"And if they did, why are the apes still around?"
The theory is that today's apes, and today's humans, share a common ancestor - not that orangutans turned into people.

"I'd like to remind everyone that I mean evolution as a theory for the origin of life"
While they do often get lumped together; they're two different concepts/events. Evolution can't begin until there is life.

Other than that; you're pretty right-on imo. Also (and this is mostly the post I had planned for CI), if you look at Creationism not from a scientific but a literary standpoint; it meshes much better with science.
You've got one part of the Bible - the book of Genesis (or even just the beginning of Genesis). It's a small part of a larger work. L
Examine this larger work:
~an eternal, time-doesn't-matter-to-me; don't-mind-waiting-for-my-children God
~a plan to bring man close to God that takes thousands of years of hinting, foreshadowing, progressing - evolving! - before it comes to fruition
~God coming down to talk to people and using almost exclusively metaphors

To me, taking Genesis at its literal word is taking part of something and saying it's vastly different from the rest of the whole. Why can't Creation take the same path as Salvation? God lays out a plan that takes considerable amounts of time but gradually works up to Him getting to have His children.
Hmmm... sounds like evolution as a process guided by God seems pretty Biblically sound to me. When Christ died on the cross, He already knew and was dying for all future sins - so God can do something in a short amount of time that extends into eternity. What if, on the 6 days outlined in Genesis, He just designed man, and planned it, and saw it all laid out in advance, and set it in motion - exactly the way he forgave sin on the cross! I hope I'm making sense.
And I realize this is just my interpretation and me posting it on Monica's blog doesn't mean it reflects what she thinks. She's welcome to debate me on this.

And, after I said all that, I'd like to conclude with this: I DON'T THINK IT REALLY MATTERS. God gave us a big long book full of instructions on how to please and love and live with Him. He told us everything He wants us to know and everything we need to know (for what He wants for us and what we need are identical). If knowing all this was important to our faith, He would have told us. I think that when we put too much of faith's responsibility on the shoulders of evolution/origin of life; we're missing the point completely.
But it's still worth discussion.

Monica said...

I just typed out the whole comment and then accidentally didn't publish it. Alghh.

I just figured out what you've been meaning by 'imo'. Ha.

Common ancestor - right! Thank you. That makes sense. It doesn't explain, though, why bacteria (as an example of a common, common ancestor) are still around. I mean, it makes sense from an it's-necessary-for-our-survival standpoint, but it doesn't fit into the natural selection model to me.

Evolution (as a theory for the origin of life) only is plausible to me if God exists. Which doesn't make it very scientific.
I really, really love your take on creationism-evolution. I'm not sure I believe it, but I think it's flipping awesome.

YOU'RE RIGHT IT DOESN'T AT ALL MATTER. At least from the Christian standpoint. I guess I dwell on it so much because it really frustrates me when evolution (as a theory for origin of life) is so often accepted as a 'scientific alternative' to creationism when it shouldn't be. People believe this theory because they don't believe in God. Which doesn't make any sense to me.

Anonymous said...

You're reading the Kiterunner!
Well, Lily took care of the common ancestor thing.
As far as the bacteria common, common ancestor question goes, I find it absolutely amazing that the bacteria present in the human colon is considered to display an endosymbiotic relationship with the human body/ organism. Based on the theoretical origin of eukaryotes developing from an endosymbiotic relationship, can we hypothesize that into the future, (should the bacteria-possessing individuals somehow be more...selective?) the bacteria in the colon will eventually evolve into a mini-organ within the human body? Only God really knows-as a human, I can't expect to be in on all His plans. Don't know where/how/why my logic is working right now-perhaps I should continue with my bio lab and stay out of this because it really has no relevance to what you're dicussing.
FIN

Monica said...

That's really interesting and even though it's off-topic I'm glad you brought it up because, um, COOL.
I think it's interesting that all these scientific explanations and phenomena only increase my faith and awe in God rather than steering me away from them.

Yes, I finally started that book. I'm only about 100 pages into it, but it is really really sad. My mom says it gets better though, so I can handle it. It is, needless to say, good.

Companionable Ills said...

I think it's the definition of evolution that's getting us caught up here.
Monica's saying that evolution has big flaws in it that suggest something different is happening - is it safe to say you're talking mostly about Darwinian evolution (as in genetics and natural selection)?
I'm saying evolution is just the organism's change over time; which I do believe in - it's hard for me to deny things like the fossil record. I'm saying it doesn't have to be guided by Darwin's principles but rather by God, who's the one tweaking the DNA (or something else for that matter)

and as for Monica's bacteria argument; do we know if the ancient bacteria were the same kinds? We have reptiles today but that doesn't mean dinosaurs haven't changed. I'll look that up/ask my dad when I get the time.
And another response to the "why are there still apes" deal: natural selection has a principle in it that says that if members of a species are geographically separated; they'll eventually change into two different ones because of the need to adapt. Most apes live in forests and trees and such; but think about the earliest human civilizations - they tend to be in flatter, more desert-y places. Common ancestor; different habitats. (now that's just my take; I don't have a citation or anything)

ambgtr said...

a couple quick things
1. I'm glad you used the wing thing. I was going to reply with that.
2. I don't get how humans fit into the equation because there seems to be such a vast difference between humans and animals. (not intelligently stated. sorry.)
3. As far as six-day-creationism being metaphoric for God guiding the process of evolution. I would love to see if/how the six days match up with the general scientifically hypothesized order of evolution.

Anonymous said...

lily-do you happen to know if Neanderthals and apes shared a common ancestor? I forgot what the theory has to say about that.
And I'm definitely confused as to the various "theories" of evolution-in fact, I've only recently realized that there's more to evolution than Darwinism.

The development of different races of humans is a FASCINATING theory about how we went from Adam and Eve to such a diverse world. I've heard it in a religion-science way, and that God intended (well, we perceive that's what He intended; we can't assume what His intentions are or that humans have the capacity to understand His intentions simply because we can't comprehend the very divine) the offspring and children of Adam and Eve to migrate to various parts of the Earth, where environmental factors and "natural selection" (I'll use that, though it very well may not even be Darwinism that occured there) led to the different colors of skin, facial features, etc.

Mahee-I'm totally with you about how science makes my wonder for God grow rather than replace it. To say that the beginning of the universe was random takes away from the meaning of life itself; it's rather ungrateful.

You should read A Thousand Splendid Suns once you're done with KR: I must say, Khaled Hosseini has a gist for making his characters' lives absolutely miserable, but it allows the reader to learn to love the characters and watch them grow. I love him.

Monica said...

Common ancestors in different places. I understand, but it still doesn't really explain why an ape would turn into a human -- why would an ape in a flatter area need to turn into a human more than an ape in the forest region? Some force had to have put some sort of motivation into action for something that dramatic to happen.

Nahid-
"To say that the beginning of the universe was random takes away from the meaning of life itself; it's rather ungrateful."
Awesome.

Monica said...

Also:
What Amanda said. (#2) And the thing is, even if someone could provide possible explanations for all of the problems with evolution as origin of life, it makes it possible but unlikely and not even really plausible to me. (Without God intervening, at least.) How did humans happen to become so different, for example?